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        <title>Old back injury and training question </title>
        <link>http://naturalstrength.net/topic/467/t/Old-back-injury-and-training-question.html</link>
        <description>
        <![CDATA[ Hi,

I injured my back after deadlifting a few years ago and every once in a while, I seem to reinjure it by doing the simplest things...like putting on socks!
It&#39;s been over a year now with no incidents and I&#39;ve decided to start lifting again. I went last week and while doing dumbell shoulder presses, I could
&#39;feel&#39; my lower back just getting the dumbells in place.


What kind of routine can I do where I remove downward compression as much as possible? Bench-based machine... ]]>
        </description>

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		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Jul 2008 15:16:45 GMT</pubDate>
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			<title><![CDATA[ Re: Old back injury and training question  ]]></title>
			<link>http://naturalstrength.net/reply/602/t/Old-back-injury-and-training-question.html#reply-602</link>
			<description><![CDATA[ When using SLDL if your back goes, it&#39;s too late to let go. ]]></description>

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			<author>feeds@kickapps.com (Silverback1946)</author>
			<guid isPermaLink="true">http://naturalstrength.net/sreply/602</guid>
			<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jul 2008 10:47:20 PST</pubDate>
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			<title><![CDATA[ Re: Old back injury and training question  ]]></title>
			<link>http://naturalstrength.net/reply/599/t/Old-back-injury-and-training-question.html#reply-599</link>
			<description><![CDATA[ I&#39;ve never found much in the way of results when doing SLDL. I&#39;ve never had an injury doing them, I just never got the results that I got from good
mornings or hypers. I got better results from doing bent-leg deads from a block, using a block high enough so that the bar was resting in front of my feet.
It&#39;s just my own personal preference. I know lifters who got tremendous results from SLDLs. I think it&#39;s just another example of what works for one
doesn&#39;t not necessarily work for everyone. ]]></description>

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			<author>feeds@kickapps.com (J Duggan)</author>
			<guid isPermaLink="true">http://naturalstrength.net/sreply/599</guid>
			<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jul 2008 10:18:09 PST</pubDate>
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			<title><![CDATA[ Re: Old back injury and training question  ]]></title>
			<link>http://naturalstrength.net/reply/598/t/Old-back-injury-and-training-question.html#reply-598</link>
			<description><![CDATA[ How do all of you feel still-leg deadlifts compare to good mornings and hypers both in terms of effectiveness and risk? I assume the sldl is not as risky since
you are not resting the weight across the shoulders, therefore reduced strain on the back. (I am pictuing a weight on a bar with the fulcrum at the far end of
the bar) Wiith the sldl the weight is generally kept closer to the center of the body. Then again, you know what happens when you assume. It seems the sldl is
good at working the lower back/glutes/hams, at least that is where I seem to fell them most when I do them.
<br>
<br>
Keith. ]]></description>

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			<author>feeds@kickapps.com (keith2237)</author>
			<guid isPermaLink="true">http://naturalstrength.net/sreply/598</guid>
			<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jul 2008 09:25:49 PST</pubDate>
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			<title><![CDATA[ Re: Old back injury and training question  ]]></title>
			<link>http://naturalstrength.net/reply/593/t/Old-back-injury-and-training-question.html#reply-593</link>
			<description><![CDATA[ I do have reservations with good mornings,big time. But to start with a broom stick,like I said, if that hurts me I got serious troubles!!! I have done rev
hypers and didn&#39;t like the feeling. Seemed like a problem in the making. Regular hypers never bothered me. The reason I&#39;m interested in good mornings
is that it could prepare you for inadvertantly rounding or leaning forward on a squat. I know that should be avoided like the plague,but lets face it we all do
it once in a while by accident. Having a strong good morning would reduce the chance of injury in that situation I would guess. ]]></description>

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			<author>feeds@kickapps.com (grffn)</author>
			<guid isPermaLink="true">http://naturalstrength.net/sreply/593</guid>
			<pubDate>Sat, 19 Jul 2008 19:27:22 PST</pubDate>
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			<title><![CDATA[ Re: Old back injury and training question  ]]></title>
			<link>http://naturalstrength.net/reply/591/t/Old-back-injury-and-training-question.html#reply-591</link>
			<description><![CDATA[ Anyone with back problems,  my advice would be to think hard about using good mornings *standing-or seated* same with Hypers. You may want to try rev Hypers
but again with back problems you have to proceed with caution. I also have a back that turns on me. ]]></description>

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			<author>feeds@kickapps.com (Silverback1946)</author>
			<guid isPermaLink="true">http://naturalstrength.net/sreply/591</guid>
			<pubDate>Sat, 19 Jul 2008 15:07:02 PST</pubDate>
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			<title><![CDATA[ Re: Old back injury and training question  ]]></title>
			<link>http://naturalstrength.net/reply/571/t/Old-back-injury-and-training-question.html#reply-571</link>
			<description><![CDATA[ The only difference I found was just in the performance of the movement itself. Standing with the bar behind your neck as compared to using a hyper bench hits
the back muscles in a similar way but not quite the same. Both are excellent movements, and I&#39;ve used both at various times. ]]></description>

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			<author>feeds@kickapps.com (J Duggan)</author>
			<guid isPermaLink="true">http://naturalstrength.net/sreply/571</guid>
			<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jul 2008 12:36:16 PST</pubDate>
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			<title><![CDATA[ Re: Old back injury and training question  ]]></title>
			<link>http://naturalstrength.net/reply/569/t/Old-back-injury-and-training-question.html#reply-569</link>
			<description><![CDATA[ Do you guys think that good mornings are alot different than a hyperextension? It seems a seated good morning would be very close to a hyper. Just
curious,I&#39;ve never had trouble with hypers. ]]></description>

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			<author>feeds@kickapps.com (grffn)</author>
			<guid isPermaLink="true">http://naturalstrength.net/sreply/569</guid>
			<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jul 2008 15:19:36 PST</pubDate>
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			<title><![CDATA[ Re: Old back injury and training question  ]]></title>
			<link>http://naturalstrength.net/reply/565/t/Old-back-injury-and-training-question.html#reply-565</link>
			<description><![CDATA[ Jgriff- You could also try seated good mornings. I&#39;ve never tried them but have read about them. Some guys recommend doing them seated rather than standing
because it&#39;s less stress on the back. Maybe it&#39;s worth trying both standing and seated and see which one is more effective/safer. ]]></description>

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			<author>feeds@kickapps.com (J Duggan)</author>
			<guid isPermaLink="true">http://naturalstrength.net/sreply/565</guid>
			<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jul 2008 14:57:28 PST</pubDate>
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			<title><![CDATA[ Re: Old back injury and training question  ]]></title>
			<link>http://naturalstrength.net/reply/552/t/Old-back-injury-and-training-question.html#reply-552</link>
			<description><![CDATA[ I&#39;ve always been scared to death to do good mornings. But I will probably try the method you guys just gave (slow progression). If I can&#39;t do good
mornings with a broom stick without hurting myself I have no business squattin/deadliftin,then go from there. I&#39;ve always believed that if you could get to
using a decent weight your back would be bulletproof but was always afraid of what would happen on the way there!!!! ]]></description>

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			<author>feeds@kickapps.com (grffn)</author>
			<guid isPermaLink="true">http://naturalstrength.net/sreply/552</guid>
			<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jul 2008 13:36:46 PST</pubDate>
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			<title><![CDATA[ Re: Old back injury and training question  ]]></title>
			<link>http://naturalstrength.net/reply/547/t/Old-back-injury-and-training-question.html#reply-547</link>
			<description><![CDATA[ I remember an article ( I&#39;m pretty sure it was from MILO) that described high-rep good mornings. I&#39;ve been fortunate in that I&#39;ve always been able
to do good mornings without a problem. And high rep good mornings are a very effective way to build back strength. If you have access to a cambered bar it
would probably make the movement more comfortable. And like Bob says, bent-knees are an absolute must. ]]></description>

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			<author>feeds@kickapps.com (J Duggan)</author>
			<guid isPermaLink="true">http://naturalstrength.net/sreply/547</guid>
			<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jul 2008 13:01:56 PST</pubDate>
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			<title><![CDATA[ Re: Old back injury and training question  ]]></title>
			<link>http://naturalstrength.net/reply/545/t/Old-back-injury-and-training-question.html#reply-545</link>
			<description><![CDATA[ Selvey 26, are you Scott selvey from the old board? Anyway, great post. I have written about goodmornings just like you stated. If you start LIGHT with a
broomstick and work up to 100 reps slowly, then as you stated move up slowly to higher poundage ie pipe, bar etc and eventually get to the olympic bar and add
weight slowly, thats the way to really help your lower back. **You MUST keep your knees very bent and feet wide when you bend over to parallel. Good post. ]]></description>

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			<author>feeds@kickapps.com (M BOB WHELAN)</author>
			<guid isPermaLink="true">http://naturalstrength.net/sreply/545</guid>
			<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jul 2008 12:41:42 PST</pubDate>
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			<title><![CDATA[ Re: Old back injury and training question  ]]></title>
			<link>http://naturalstrength.net/reply/542/t/Old-back-injury-and-training-question.html#reply-542</link>
			<description><![CDATA[ No more than 5 pounds per increase after you get to the bar. Add weight very slowly. ]]></description>

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			<author>feeds@kickapps.com (Selvey 26)</author>
			<guid isPermaLink="true">http://naturalstrength.net/sreply/542</guid>
			<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jul 2008 12:14:02 PST</pubDate>
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			<title><![CDATA[ Re: Old back injury and training question  ]]></title>
			<link>http://naturalstrength.net/reply/541/t/Old-back-injury-and-training-question.html#reply-541</link>
			<description><![CDATA[ I would do good mornings (parallel with VERY BENT knees) with a broom stick for high reps and slowly - S-L-O-W-L-Y work up to just the bar. Max Bob wrote about
this once. Do them once a week and work the broom stick from 25 to 100 reps for one set slowly. Then move to a pipe slowly up the reps to 100, then to a bar
with no weight and move up slowly from 25 to 100 reps. Once you get to the olympic bar (maybe 6 months from now) just do ONE set a week of about 20 reps. Add 2
1/2 pounds when it gets EASY. Keeps your knees very bent when you do them. Good luck. ]]></description>

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			<author>feeds@kickapps.com (Selvey 26)</author>
			<guid isPermaLink="true">http://naturalstrength.net/sreply/541</guid>
			<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jul 2008 10:39:12 PST</pubDate>
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			<title><![CDATA[ Re: Old back injury and training question  ]]></title>
			<link>http://naturalstrength.net/reply/526/t/Old-back-injury-and-training-question.html#reply-526</link>
			<description><![CDATA[ The vacuum is similar but with the vac you blow out all your air first. engaging the T.A. while lifting is tricky. You must keep breathing yet keep the muscle
flexed,also using high reps (which I always do with squat/deads) is a challenge. The book I was told to get is called Functional Training for Sports by Mike
Boyle. I&#39;m sure most of the stuff (info,exercises) can be had over the internet (free). The book other than that section (which is pretty large) isn&#39;t
anything amazing (although not bad either). He calls the exercises &quot;draw-in&quot; exercises. There is a progression starting with quadraped (on all fours)
and deadbug (laying on back). You would be surprised how difficult it is to do at first. The T.A muscle is so weak at first that you really don&#39;t feel much
when flexing it at the start. The first progression is just laying on your back and placing a hockey puck (or something similar) below your belly
button,draw-in,make the puck sink,then release and make... ]]></description>

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			<author>feeds@kickapps.com (grffn)</author>
			<guid isPermaLink="true">http://naturalstrength.net/sreply/526</guid>
			<pubDate>Wed, 09 Jul 2008 00:16:53 PST</pubDate>
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			<title><![CDATA[ Re: Old back injury and training question  ]]></title>
			<link>http://naturalstrength.net/reply/523/t/Old-back-injury-and-training-question.html#reply-523</link>
			<description><![CDATA[ Thank you for the info. It does make sense, although I have never tried it. And, like you mentioned Jgriff, like a lot of lifters, I was always taught not to
hold your stomach in while squatting/deadlifting. Although I do not use a belt, I still remember that advice. I have used some of the exercises in Matt
Furey&#39;s Combat Abs book, and one of them is the vacuum, which must be similar to what you described. At least the theory is probably the same. ]]></description>

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			<author>feeds@kickapps.com (J Duggan)</author>
			<guid isPermaLink="true">http://naturalstrength.net/sreply/523</guid>
			<pubDate>Tue, 08 Jul 2008 23:21:13 PST</pubDate>
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			<title><![CDATA[ Re: Old back injury and training question  ]]></title>
			<link>http://naturalstrength.net/reply/521/t/Old-back-injury-and-training-question.html#reply-521</link>
			<description><![CDATA[ When I was first told about this I thought &quot;if its so great how come everyone isn&#39;t doing it?&quot; and I often wondered why there was no mention of
it in Hardgainer or other sensible places. But it has been a savior for me. I can&#39;t say I haven&#39;t had any problems but before I did this I would
cripple myself with 135 pounds on my back and couldn&#39;t even think about a deadlift. If your not currently having trouble you may not be interested
(although there are some that say you inevitably will have trouble if you don&#39;t adopt this method). If you can&#39;t squat or deadlift without alot of pain
you gotta try it! Max Bob do you have any experience with this? ]]></description>

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			<author>feeds@kickapps.com (grffn)</author>
			<guid isPermaLink="true">http://naturalstrength.net/sreply/521</guid>
			<pubDate>Tue, 08 Jul 2008 12:44:50 PST</pubDate>
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			<title><![CDATA[ Re: Old back injury and training question  ]]></title>
			<link>http://naturalstrength.net/reply/520/t/Old-back-injury-and-training-question.html#reply-520</link>
			<description><![CDATA[ This may help a little - Off Wilkopedia -
<br>
<br>
The muscle in movement and training -
<br>
The most well known and effective method of strengthening it is the vacuum exercise, as well as engaging it during lifts. The transversus is the body&#39;s
natural weight-lifting belt, stabilizing the spine and pelvis during lifting movements. Failure to engage the muscle at higher intensity lifts is dangerous and
encourages injury. It acts as a girdle or corset in creating hoop tension around the midsection, tensing before contraction of the extremities.
<br>
Without a stable spine, the nervous system fails to recruit the muscles in extremities efficiently, and functional movements cannot be properly
performed.[citation needed] Stabilization must then occur at the segmental level. The transversus abdominis and the segmental stabilizers of the spine are
designed to work in tandem. This kind of lifting eventually overloads segmental stabilizers, and can result in massive lower back pain,... ]]></description>

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			<author>feeds@kickapps.com (M BOB WHELAN)</author>
			<guid isPermaLink="true">http://naturalstrength.net/sreply/520</guid>
			<pubDate>Tue, 08 Jul 2008 08:04:24 PST</pubDate>
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			<title><![CDATA[ Re: Old back injury and training question  ]]></title>
			<link>http://naturalstrength.net/reply/519/t/Old-back-injury-and-training-question.html#reply-519</link>
			<description><![CDATA[ Jim its hard to explain but here goes. I have afriend who is a strength coach for a college and he got me into the Transversus thing. I&#39;m not exactly sure
who came up with the method but Mike Boyle (fairly well known strength coach in Boston area,my friend graduated with him at Boston Univ) is the main proponent
of it. There is a progression of exercises that you have to go thru to build enough strength and coordination to be able to do this while exercising. But the
basic way to engage the Trans is to pull your bellybutton in to your spine,as if your trying to zip up a pair of pants that are too tight. You start just
laying on your back and then progress to doing it while moving. The Transversus muscles are small muscles that lock your lower vertebraes in place. Theory is
that this will prevent any movement of the spine while exercising which is the cause of most back pain from squat/deadlift. I won&#39;t say this has completely
solved my problems but there is no doubt it has... ]]></description>

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			<author>feeds@kickapps.com (grffn)</author>
			<guid isPermaLink="true">http://naturalstrength.net/sreply/519</guid>
			<pubDate>Tue, 08 Jul 2008 01:04:42 PST</pubDate>
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			<title><![CDATA[ Re: Old back injury and training question  ]]></title>
			<link>http://naturalstrength.net/reply/518/t/Old-back-injury-and-training-question.html#reply-518</link>
			<description><![CDATA[ Hey Jgriff, I&#39;m interested in knowing how you engage the transversus muscles. How did you learn to do it? Was it something you developed yourself?
<br>
<br>
John spies---you got great advice. They&#39;re both absolutely right. Take it slowly, and always use proper form. Drew had a congenital back problem, and
through a lot of work, thought, and advice, he developed his own way of training his legs/back/hips. He trained smart, and, of course, brutally hard. Whether
it was with free weights or machines, he never let his form break down. ]]></description>

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			<author>feeds@kickapps.com (J Duggan)</author>
			<guid isPermaLink="true">http://naturalstrength.net/sreply/518</guid>
			<pubDate>Mon, 07 Jul 2008 23:36:40 PST</pubDate>
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			<title><![CDATA[ Re: Old back injury and training question  ]]></title>
			<link>http://naturalstrength.net/reply/517/t/Old-back-injury-and-training-question.html#reply-517</link>
			<description><![CDATA[ I have had a bad back just about my whole life also. I couldn&#39;t squat or deadlift without hurting myself for many years. What I did was get real serious
with my stretching,proper technique,gradual progression. Started seeing a chiropractor, and (maybe the biggest help) started going to a great massage therapist
regularly. (trigger points,assisted stretching,etc.) I also learned how to engage my transversus muscles when squatting and deadlifting,which after a while
gave me miraculous results. Your right that not squatting and deadlifting hard and heavy is a big blow to a natural weight trainer in search of size and
strength but if you try all the things I mentioned and still have trouble you can still work around the problem and not be relegated to &quot;pumper&quot;
status! ]]></description>

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			<author>feeds@kickapps.com (grffn)</author>
			<guid isPermaLink="true">http://naturalstrength.net/sreply/517</guid>
			<pubDate>Mon, 07 Jul 2008 18:07:19 PST</pubDate>
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			<title><![CDATA[ Old back injury and training question  ]]></title>
			<link>http://naturalstrength.net/topic/467/t/Old-back-injury-and-training-question.html</link>
			<description><![CDATA[ Hi,
<br>
I injured my back after deadlifting a few years ago and every once in a while, I seem to reinjure it by doing the simplest things...like putting on socks!
It&#39;s been over a year now with no incidents and I&#39;ve decided to start lifting again. I went last week and while doing dumbell shoulder presses, I could
&#39;feel&#39; my lower back just getting the dumbells in place.
<br>
<br>
What kind of routine can I do where I remove downward compression as much as possible? Bench-based machine exercises?
<br>
Even after a few years of not lifting, I am still pretty strong so it is hard (and frustrating) to not be able to lift heavy (and on my feet) anymore. The
dilemma is do I take the chance of hurting my back to get a good workout or continue to lift very light and become a &#39;pumper&#39;? At least I don&#39;t
wear spandex.....!
<br>
<br>
I have access to a full gym with the normal machines. Thanks and it&#39;s great to be on the board again. ]]></description>

			<!-- optional elements -->
			<author>feeds@kickapps.com (John Spies)</author>
			<guid isPermaLink="true">http://naturalstrength.net/topic/467</guid>
			<pubDate>Mon, 07 Jul 2008 15:16:45 PST</pubDate>
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